Faces East

[domesticgoddess]

I want to ask you all something I am sure you have had to face in some manner-

My dh is now really annoyed about the kids going to church. It doesn't help that we now have the 11:30 time slot. I have felt like this is important, and if we don't have other plans I take them. They are now starting the "I want to stay with dad." Currently our deal is 50/50, they come with me half the time, and can stay with dad the other half (this we just decided). Of course my husband would prefer 100/0 not going to church. We had a huge argument last night in which he expressed how damaging he thinks the church is, especially since the whole Prop 8 thing. So what I am asking you, is do you think I should give up the 50/50 fight and let the kids decide what they should do to make my marriage more peaceful? They are 10, 7, and 4. I am just getting so exhausted by Sunday being an issue. I of course want them to go...

[prairie chuck]

The church is damaging to kids??? Ouch! I don't think that attitude is helpful. Look, there's not an organization in the world that is 100% perfect---not even your own family. So we join these organizations to get the best out of it that we can and we ignore or deal with the less than perfect stuff. That's what the whole human experience is--learning to love and associate with each other, warts and all.

Part of your belief requires that you teach children what you think God wants them to know. Part of your obligation as a parent is to teach dc spirituality. Every child needs to learn to identify and tap into his spiritual side. Every person needs to find their "spiritual language." It's essential that dc come with you to church in order for them to develop spirituality.

Can they find spirituality in other places? Of course, but you are LDS, it's part of who you are. Your dc need to understand fully who you are, what being LDS means. You need to be able to share with them, instill in them, the special relationship you have with the church.

Would dh forbid dc from knowing your family? Warts and all? Your family is an essential part of who you are and also a part of who dc are. The same is true with the church.

How does dh know he's made the right decisions regarding his beliefs? Because he studied it all out, in depth and came to his conclusions. But he would deny his dc the opportunity to study out the same things for themselves? We've told our ds, if someday you decide the church isn't true, that's fine. But before then, you need to study it and know it as in depth as your father did before he left the church--that means Seminary, weekly church, daily scripture study, prayers, practicing the religion, etc.

At that young age, I would worry that something else is at play. Is there something that makes church not so enjoyable? Is there a way to teach them to enjoy it? Do they see how much you get out of it? If they wanted to be at church, would this be so much of an issue?

I know for my part, if we have to miss church (like we did yesterday because of the storm) they are dissappointed, they WANT to be at church. On our way home from church each week I ask what they learned, I ask about what touched their hearts the most, what was most meaningful to them, what made it a good church meeting. That way I know if there are problems and can try to solve them. I also know what they are responding to spiritually and can help them focus on that, help them desire those spiritual feelings. (Not that what I've done is a 100% guarantee of anything, as I'm sure you've seen.)
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"I write down everything I want to remember. That way, instead of spending a lot of time trying to remember what it is I wrote down, I spend the time looking for the paper I wrote it down on." - Beryl Pfizer

[mommaBear]

This is just about exactly what DH has told me on occasion. I don't know what to do about it, but since your kids are so young I wouldn't be leaving the decision up to them. If your DH knows that he has all kinds of ways to influence them to choose to stay home, since it can be a lot more "fun" when you are small.
I like what PC says.
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"Everybody needs beauty as well as bread, places to play in and pray in, where nature may heal and give strength to body and soul."

~ John Muir

[pinkpatent]

I love that you and DH have an agreement to split the Sunday time. I think its fair for you to teach the children your religion.

Have you and DH thought about having church at home on his Sundays? That way he could teach DC those things that he feels are important, and the children have some real bonding time with dad. Then, he will know that he is really contributing to half of their religious education.

This time would not even have to be one specific religion. It could be morals instruction, or discussions about how different religions work toward the same goal of finding God.
_________________
My candle burns at both ends;
It will not last the night;
But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends-
It gives a lovely light!

Edna St. Vincent Millay

[brianj]

Our arrangement is that the kids can decide. I can't make them go to Church. DW can't forbid them. I can't say this is the right answer or the best negotiation. It's just where we settled on things. DW has gotten a lot better overall about their going to Church if they want to. She is actually somewhat supportive at times of my one daughter going because DW sees how much she enjoys it (this daughter tends to be much more social).

Currently only one of my six children goes to Church on any regular basis with me. I encourage the others as best I can.
_________________
Brian Johnston, AKA Valoel
Ring the bells that still can ring. Forget your perfect offering. There's a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in.

[domesticgoddess]

Thanks for your thoughts guys. I guess I have moments where I just want to give up, and PC thanks for encouraging me to stand up for what I think is right too.

I do think church is beneficial, even if they choose to stop going at some point. I told the kids that yesterday. I told them that I will always love them even if they don't like this church when they are adults. They said they wanted to come with me, and didn't mind it. Maybe now we have "officially" gone 50/50, the conflict will die down. I keep hoping.

I really wish my dh could let go of some of his anger about church stuff. It can be exhausting.

[Heartbeat]

I wish there was a one size fits all compromise to this question. Currently, DH is letting DC go to church. Actually, he says he wants them to grow up in the Church, but we will "have to make sure they aren't overly indoctrinated with the wrong ideas."

I know as we have talked about this, I have used a lot of ideas that he tends to agree with.. that there are actually really great things about the Church for kids, and that we will just need to be 'vigilant' in helping their understanding (actually, I sometimes feel I have to be more vigilant in making sure I know what he says to them because his ideas have been causing lots of problems with our oldest DD -- she is only 9).

I've appealed to his logical side, in that we are growing up in the Mormon Corridor, and about kids feeling left out. Also, there are studies that talk about how children who grow up with religious backgrounds --even if as adults they are Atheists, -- they are still more 'successful' in life -- success being based on education, employment, confidence, abilities, etc.
Since Mormon is my tribe, and the language I speak, that is what I can teach them.

I also explained that while he is still discovering his own beliefs, it was unfair to expect the kids to understand the two varying points of view. Also, if one church is not any better than another, then why can't they come to the Church I want to attend, since he wasn't going to attend one.

I don't necessarily believe as he does, but using some of the things he now believes, I was able to help him see my point of view. Lucky me, he was willing to agree. But it doesn't mean that at some point he is going to change his mind. That's a day I am fearful of coming.

[brianj]

[cojo]

I know it works for some people on this board, but I have a big problem with allowing small children to decide if they want to go to church or not. Give a toddler a choice of going to church or staying home and playing with dad (or mom), what do you think that child's choice is going to be? Even young "kids" don't have the cognitive ability to reason. They will usually pick whatever "feels good." What "feels good" is staying home with a parent and playing, instead of sitting and having to be almost silent for over an hour. It's hard for me, too. If it was just my choice and I solely went on what feels good and what is fun, I wouldn't choose church either. I know the road that not going CAN lead to, and I don't want to take those chances. Children can't understand that. So the short of the long is, if you have agreed to take those babies to church with you half of the time (at least)- take them. I know its just better to give in for the sake of arguing, but what else is he going to want you to cave on?
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When you saw only one set of footprints, it was then that I carried you.

[mommaBear]

[tryingtogetitright]

Today in SS part of the lesson was on God's commandment to parent's to teach their children the gospel. I hope that all of us do this to the very fullest extent that we can. And that would generally not including compromising because it avoids argument or because it is pretty darn difficult to take children to church when one parent doesn't go.

We all have to figure out what our personal best is in this situation, and we know that so long as we are doing our personal best and working to increase our personal best, that is good enough for God.

(It also helps when 1/2 the time is the best that we can do, to make sure we teach during the week the things they miss at church. The primary and SS lessons are available on the internet. You can get your story hour tapes that will teach every bible story. And there are stories galore you can read from the Friend or New Era. And you can have family home evening, and emphasize the values and believes that parents share. And family scriptures and prayer.)

[domesticgoddess]

I appreciate the words of support about not compromising on this. I think that this is something I struggle with-how much do I have to give, yet still be myself. When I started this post, I was really struggling with that.

I really do agree that he will continue to push if I don't draw the line. Sometimes I just fear that the marriage will fall apart, and I don't want that. But I also have to remember that he might have to learn to deal with the few lines I have drawn in the sand, right?

Thanks for being my sounding board...

[tiffrose]

My dh and I have the 50/50 agreement. it is set, and neither of is willing to give in anymore. So when the kids say I want to go to___ church today we tell them it is ______turn for you to go with them. My kids have given me so much trouble about my 3 hour church vs dad's 1 hour, fun church with treats. But yesterday my dd 5 yr old said she likes both churches. she likes the treats at dads church and primary at mine.

Don't allow him to just make plans every Sunday either, that is not fair. My dh used to buy ready made food on Sunday, and it was rare enough I would eat it too. then it became a more regular thing. So I bought groceries that would allow for nice, easy dinners on Sunday, and then I would suggest we make that on Sunday, and buy food on Saturday. I don't know if he was trying to test me, but he always declined my option. So one time I knew he was probably going to buy food on Sunday so I made extra meals on Friday, so even if he did not cook on Saturday then There would still be plenty of dinner food on Sunday night. (which diner on the weekends has been his responsibility since before the disaffection).
It came time to order the food, and he asked what I wanted, I said I love you but I am good, just order for you and the kids. while he was gone to pick up the food, I heated left-overs for me and we still ate together, our different dinners.

So show love when stranding up for your religious beliefs, but the kids are half yours so 50/50 seems fair. and to make one side less, has to be someone willing to give that up. not someone taking it away.

[cojo]

Tiffrose,

You should bring awesome treats with you to church, something they don't normally get at home. Give it to them as soon as you pick them up from their classes, so then they can associate treats at mom's church, too.
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When you saw only one set of footprints, it was then that I carried you.

[tiffrose]

I do bring treats! and I pointed that out to her, and she agreed. But I don't have doughnuts, or packaged cookies. I do things like their favorite cereal, fish crackers, fruit snacks, fruit roll up and occasionally small candy. Which they do like.